Have you tried HRT and adrenal support and it hasn’t helped? You’re meditating in the morning and you have the perfect relaxing routine before bed but you still wake up multiple times a night? 


In this episode I talk to Zenia who has tried all of these things and nothing has really helped. 


I explain why what she’s tried so far hasn’t worked and what imbalances in her body that are affecting her sleep have likely been missed so far. Addressing these imbalances will also help with ADHD and anxiety so she won’t have to take strong drugs to bandaid her symptoms. We talked about accepting in the moment when you can’t sleep but also not giving up on solving sleep issues because you don’t have to live with poor sleep even if you’re in perimenopause and have ADHD and adrenal issues (or HPA axis issues).  


Resources mentioned in this episode:


Sign up for a free Sleep Breakthrough call that will be aired on this podcast! You’ll fill out an assessment and then we’ll meet on Zoom and I’ll tell you 3 things to do right now that will have the biggest impact on your health and sleep. Schedule your call here.


Schedule a consultation to get started with the Complete Sleep Solution program so you can consistently sleep 7+ hours uninterrupted, naturally and permanently.


00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview

01:24 Meet Zenia: Sleep Struggles and Background

02:09 Exploring Zenia's Sleep Routine and Challenges

04:10 Hormone Replacement Therapy and Testing

04:56 Understanding Cortisol and HPA Axis Dysfunction

11:26 Mindset Shift: Acceptance and Managing Stress

16:44 Impact of Birth Control on Sleep and Health

20:32 Addressing Copper Toxicity and Mineral Imbalance

22:15 Conclusion and Next Steps


Episode Transcript


Martha Lewis: Have you tried HRT or adrenal support and it hasn't helped? You're meditating in the morning, you have the perfect relaxing routine before bed, but you still wake up multiple times a night. In this episode, I talked to Zenia who has tried all of these things and nothing has really helped. I explained why what she's tried so far hasn't worked, and what imbalances in her body that are affecting her sleep have likely been missed so far.


And the good news is addressing these imbalances will also help with ADHD and anxiety, so she won't have to take strong drugs to band aid her symptoms. We talked about accepting in the moment when you can't sleep, but also not giving up on solving sleep issues. Because you don't have to live with poor sleep, even if you're in perimenopause and have ADHD and adrenal issues, or what we refer to as HPA axis issues in this episode.


This is the Sleep Detective Podcast, where you will learn why you can't sleep and how to fix it without drugs. I'm Martha Lewis. I've been a functional health coach for the past five years. And I've helped over 200 clients find and fix the root causes of their health issues. So they can consistently sleep seven to nine hours naturally, even if things like hormone replacement therapy and supplements for adrenal fatigue haven't helped.


Hello, everyone. Today I have Zenia on the call with a sleep breakthrough question. So thanks so much for being here.


Zenia: Thanks for having me.


Martha Lewis: Yeah. So I saw the assessment you filled out. And so I just want to let everyone know a little bit what you've been experiencing and you're welcome to chime in whenever as well.


But it sounds like you used to have trouble falling asleep and now it's more trouble staying asleep. Yeah. Okay. And kind of sleeping restlessly that second half of the night.


Zenia: Yes.


Martha Lewis: Yeah. And feeling wired, but tired some during the day as well.


Zenia: Yeah, I don't know if I feel fatigued. It doesn't feel fatigued like I never feel sleepy but I definitely feel tired.


Martha Lewis: Yeah, okay, and it sounds like you're doing so many of the right things, so like you have a good bedtime routine, you're doing a lot of relaxation and things like that and you're taking some supplements as well. Anything else that you're doing or that you've tried?


Zenia: I feel like I've tried everything to the point where in the last week, I've just kind of gotten out of trying to do a whole lot because I also, I don't know if it was your podcast or another one where it was like, have you tried everything? Maybe you're trying too hard.


So, but yeah, what I've been doing, you know, I exercise seven days a week. I have a morning routine where I start out, I start, I try to start out sandwich my day by having a calm beginning of it and ending of it. Sometimes that looks like, you know, short, many meditations of like five or six minutes, breath work, little bite sized yoga stretches, things like that.


I follow all those little rules. I was doing the morning sunlight thing, but, it's been cold out. So I haven't been doing that, but, you know, exposing yourself to morning light within the first 30 minutes. And, I did a 30 day trial run of no caffeine, which didn't help at all. I've looked at diet stuff and in the evening.


I try to dim the lights and I use those, red or blue light blocking glasses. I try to avoid, screen time. I take a shower before bed, dark blackout curtains. Got a new bed and replaced, our windows last year. Earplugs, eye mask, all the things.


Martha Lewis: Right. Yep, you're doing all the right things. So to me, I mean, I will say that means there's something deeper going on. So have you done any kind of testing? I mean, I saw you're taking hormone replacement therapy, which I think is great. So, so did you do testing for that?


Zenia: When I first started on it? No, I guess where? Where the sleep got really, the really abrupt change happened was about a year ago. And uh, I went to, it felt like an emergency. I, at that time I was waking up like four to six times a night. and so I just got the hormone, uh, replacement therapy and that did help. Like it reduced it, at that time.


I didn't get tested until. Until later that fall, so about six months ago. Um, and I also got cortisol, um, my cortisol four point cortisol tested, which showed that I do have, like dysregulated cortisol and I didn't realize it because I, I don't feel tired.


Like, I do. Power. I've actually reduced my exercise to try to make a difference to like I was power lifting like three times a week. I'm just doing it twice a week now and I don't really run now. I've kind of walk because I have, um, I guess medical establishment doesn't completely recognize that. But my doctor said that I have access dysfunction, which is where the cortisol was elevated for a long period of time.


Uh, I don't know how long I didn't know about it. And then, then the, hypothalamus, pituitary gland and adrenals, um, just aren't, they're just like, oh, you're going to be cortisol high all the time where we're just going to dampen it down. So my cortisol is, is lower during the day, apparently, but I don't feel, the typical symptoms like that.


Like I. I don't, I don't have a problem getting out of bed, which is new. I always had a problem getting to sleep and then waking up. And now I can fall asleep, although I take a lot of things. and that, but I just pop up and I'm wide awake. I've had that in my life. I used to always be slow to wake up, you know, there's a real drastic shift that's happened.


Martha Lewis: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Very interesting. And yeah, so yeah, the hype that HPA axis that you described, yeah, it's like at first it responds really well to stress and can make a lot of cortisol and then it just doesn't function as well over time. And that can be because you're lacking nutrients like minerals. Or, you know, kind of the building blocks of hormones as well, cholesterol and fat and things like that.


Yeah, there's kind of a lot to it. And so my approach is always, okay, well, what's stressing the body out so much that that has happened? And so that could be things that you don't really know are there. But it definitely sounded like from some of your symptoms that you're having that cortisol dysregulation, which makes sense knowing that you've done that test. So and I'd be curious to see what cortisol does in the middle of the night as well.


Zenia: Yeah, I wonder if it's spiking because I do wake up a lot in the second half of the night and just kind of awake.


Martha Lewis: Yeah. Yeah. So likely that that could be happening as well.


Zenia: Yeah. And sometimes. Sometimes, oh, sorry to interrupt, sometimes I feel hot too, and then I also, sometimes my heart is beating fast.


Martha Lewis: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so that could be cortisol or when cortisol gets depleted, then the body resorts to adrenaline instead. So that's going to magnify that. That like stress response even more.


Zenia: And so that doctor prescribed, um, she's a fun, she's a OBGYN as well as a menopause specialist and a functional medicine doctor.


She prescribed a whole bunch of adaptogens. Um, I've been on those for a couple months, um, for that. Um, and, but the one thing that one piece of the puzzle, she, so one thing I should mention, and I don't know if I mentioned it on the form, I do have, uh, ADHD and she suggested that I get, I don't know, I don't want to go on medications for that, um, but that what could be happening is the perimenopausal symptoms could be the hormones and the, all of it could be interacting with the ADHD and ramping it up, um, So I think that's like the trifecta, perimenopause, um, HPA access, and ADHD, and it's just all the things that I was doing to manage, um, some of those things for the last few years, just suddenly a year ago stopped working.


So all the exercise, all the whole food diet, all the


Martha Lewis: Right. Yeah. And I think there's even more going on than just that, that's actually causing that can have a lot to do with neurotransmitters as well as hormones and then the HPA axis. So I found that even, like even taking HRT isn't a magic pill for everyone because if the body still is out of balance and even though you've been doing everything you can to be healthy, like, I think there's, there's more going on that you don't know is there that could have to do with gut health and liver function and mineral balance and things like that. Um, that HRT works a lot better when you're also working on all those other things and doing everything you can to get your body back in balance.


So. Yeah. So, you know, I know it's frustrating because you're definitely doing all the right things and I just think there are there are hidden things there that you don't know about that have caused stress every time.


Zenia: I was frustrated about it, but I, um, cause I think last year and even beginning of this year, it was like, oh, now I'm going to find the answer. Now this is going to be the thing. And I've just recently just resigned myself to the fact that it's a complex. I mean, I have specialists referring me to specialists, so it's just, I think it's complex and I've just accepted that. 


Martha Lewis: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good. But, uh, but you also don't have to accept that this is just what you have to live with either.


Zenia: No, I mean, I should say accept it while also seeking, you know, knowing. Just trying to be like, okay, I'm not going to find the answer immediately, but I'm going to keep working on this and it's, it's obviously going to be a process.


Martha Lewis: Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's not simple. By the time we have any kind of symptoms, it just means different systems in the body are broken down. And so it's, it's a matter of looking at all of those.


Zenia: I think it did freak me out at first because, you know, for 49 years, my body was one way in terms of my sleep. And then suddenly it was like, what's happening?


Martha Lewis: Yeah. Yeah. But knowing that you had trouble falling asleep before, I mean, means that things have been out of balance for, for a while.


Zenia: I've always had, I mean, from being very young, I don't remember not having that issue.


Martha Lewis: Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. So, I mean, something I can suggest to start with, um, is, I mean, first of all, and it sounds like you're already kind of getting there, but working on this mindset about it of in the moment when you weren't sleeping of accepting that, because it's like the frustration about it that makes it so much worse.


Zenia: Yeah. Thanks. Working on changing my relationship with it. Like, yeah, I did two months ago. I was more obsessing about it and you know, I was like writing down like, what was my sleep last night? And when I would wake up, I would, you know, I'd be very, like my relationship with it was upset. And I've shifted.


I've shifted that because that obviously, uh, didn't help and made it work. So, yeah, I'm just trying to like have this attitude of of just, yeah, acceptance.


Martha Lewis: Yeah. Okay, great. That's a great first start. Um, and I have a, you know, another podcast episode I did where I talk about what's called the thought model in life coaching. And it's this idea that And I can send you the link to this and I'll have it in the show notes as well for everyone. But it's this idea that every circumstance that happens is neutral and our thoughts about it or what create our feelings and that determines our actions and then that determines what happens or our results.


And so if we can't change the circumstance, we can still change what we're thinking about it. And that's going to change everything else. So


Zenia: I think that's really a good, I'm really, that's cool. I really liked that you said that. Um, cause I think one of the things that I don't know if other, if listeners can relate to this, I think one of the things that was making it stressful was that I was listening to all these longevity podcasts and you know, everyone knows how important sleep is.


So it became viral, especially like with the HPA access. One of the things is you need to get good sleep. So I just. Pressure. Like I have to get good sleep and I'm not getting good sleep and it's. Oh my gosh, it's the end of the world and I'm going to die and blah, blah, blah. And I had to really shift that because, sleep it's not, it's a thing that comes, you can't, I can't control it.


Like you can't just instantly go to sleep. It's something that we allow. So I'm just trying to change my relationship to it. But yeah, I think the attitude and the thoughts, um, what you, what you just said really resonated.


Martha Lewis: Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Yeah. And it's not like you're never going to have a negative thought again, but it's a practice of like, okay, noticing when those things are happening and then, and not going to the opposite of like, Oh, I'm going to sleep great tonight.


If that's believable to your brain, that's not going to help, but it's finding something neutral and empowering or what, however you want to feel. But like, for me, it's like, I'm going to figure it out no matter what, or You know, and that helps me feel calm and grounded and, and then that's going to calm our nervous system, which is going to help us sleep better that night anyway, instead of happening.


Zenia: Yeah, absolutely.


Martha Lewis: Yeah. Awesome. And so I noticed too, one of the things you mentioned. At the end of the assessment of like, your goal is, you know, calming your nervous system and being in that parasympathetic state more, which I think is part of it too. And, um, I recommend a program called Primal Trust. I'm not sure if you've heard of it, but it's uh, it's kind of rewiring the brain, calming the nervous system. It also helps deal with trauma. Um, address trauma.


Zenia: Did you have it on your podcast?


Martha Lewis: Yeah. Yeah, I interviewed someone.


Zenia: Yeah. Yeah, I haven't, I don't know much, but I heard, um, the episode you did about that. And that did really pique my interest.


Martha Lewis: Yeah. So I think that could be a good thing for you to try. And again, I can link to that episode and to the program. And I'll send you that. Um, so yeah, I mean, it sounds like you're already doing a lot though, as far as like, you know, sandwiching your day with relaxation, like all of that definitely sounds perfect. You know, I think if those things aren't helping, then there is more going on in your body that just hasn't been found yet.


Zenia: I think so. And I, I think I have my attitude of. Of the reason it's so kind like, okay, whatever happens is because I have been trying to control it. And it's like, I just had to let go of like, okay, I'm doing every single thing and it's not impacting it.


So it's not. And I don't know, I was listening. I don't know if it was your podcast or another sleep podcast where it was talking about like that works for people who already sleep. Or, and they just want to sleep better. It doesn't. It doesn't, it doesn't work for someone with insomnia or has some underlying issues. Well, because I was like, Oh, that's why it's not working.


Martha Lewis: Yeah, totally. Yeah. So one thing I did notice was That I want to talk about was the history of birth control. So this is common with a lot of women I work with. And, so yeah, I mean, birth control, especially kind of longterm, it can affect our sleep over time because for many different reasons, I mean, it's, you know, it doesn't, it suppresses our natural hormones instead of giving us synthetic hormones. That's what keeps us from getting pregnant.


But it also depletes certain minerals that are necessary for sleep, like magnesium, zinc, um, even vitamin B6. It's shown that it, it affects the good bacteria in our gut. So it actually destroys the good bacteria so that's going to affect our gut health and then pathogens can take over and then we start reacting to foods and so it just kind of had this um, this big effect on gut health.


And it can lead to something that I see in a lot of my female clients with the history of birth control of copper toxicity. So even just hormonal birth control but the copper IUD for sure, even hormonal IUDs can both lead to this buildup of copper. And copper is a necessary nutrient, but when there's too much of it, it becomes toxic.


And so that can happen, especially because birth control depletes zinc. So then copper, like that copper zinc ratio, um, gets out of control and that can lead to sleep disturbances as well as things like ADHD, anxiety, you know, things we consider more mental health issues and lots of other symptoms as well so I think that that is a missing piece of the puzzle likely for you is looking at copper toxicity and mineral imbalance. So, yeah, that's what I'm seeing there.


Zenia: Yeah, I on, I was on the oral contraceptive pill from for on and off for decades, um, and then I went off of it in 2019. I just stopped it. But then when I started to get the, um, perimenopause symptoms, my PCP put me back on it. And then I last year, after doing some research on it, I, I advocated, um, for myself to get with someone who would do the HRT and stop the birth control pills.


Martha Lewis: Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's unfortunate that I mean, birth control is like balance your hormones with birth control. And it's like, it doesn't, it artificially balances them and can help with symptoms, but it can be making the root causes of what was causing those symptoms even worse over time, unfortunately, but also


Zenia: One book I read also said that it's in, um, yeah, it can be a variable in the HPA axis.


Martha Lewis: Yeah. I mean, it affects everything. So, I mean, I remember when I was 30 is when I was getting my master's in holistic nutrition. And then I, so I'm learning about every nutrient and it's like birth control was like this common factor of depleting every nutrient. So was alcohol and caffeine, but I wasn't ready to quit those, but I'm like, I'm getting off birth control.


So then I still, when I, when I developed sleep issues at age 39 and tested at age 40 or 41, I had copper, like major copper toxicity. And even though I hadn't taken birth control in over 10 years, so, yeah, so it's, it's just something that, yeah, it can stay in your body. Even though your body wants to get back in balance, if it doesn't have that assistance, then it can't really at that point.


Zenia: How do you bring it back in balance? Like, you know, you've stopped, I mean, you're not taking it anymore, but you're saying like that copper toxicity and mineral imbalance is still there. What does one do to address that?


Martha Lewis: Yeah, well, the first thing is balancing minerals. And by that I mean, The primary minerals are calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium. So when you start balancing those, then you never want to force your body to get rid of copper. Or any heavy metals, really. Cause it's gonna cause a lot of symptoms.


You know, if they're start circulating around and, and your body can't detoxify it and so it can make you feel even worse. So I always work on balancing minerals first and then as your body's strong enough it will start getting rid of copper and then I usually recommend some kind of binder to bind to the copper and pull it out of the body so that it's not circulating around and putting this extra burden on the liver.


So it's yeah, it's kind of a two prong approach and that we can't just be like, get rid of copper. I mean, same thing with like pathogens in the gut. I never just say do a parasite cleanse. It's like you need to be supporting your liver. You need to be, you know, ideally having a binder to bind to those toxins that that die off is going to produce or else you're going to feel really bad.


So yeah, it is, it is more complex, but it's, it is possible to do all of this. So I don't want you to give up hope except in the moment. But that doesn't mean except forever and that this is how it has to be.


Zenia: Yeah. Thank you.


Martha Lewis: Yeah. Awesome. Well, anything else I can answer?


Zenia: No, I think like this has given me some good ideas that I haven't thought about before. Um, the primal trust, sticks out and then maybe the, about that copper toxicity and mineral balance. So those are, those are two things that, um, I haven't, I haven't explored yet. That's helpful.


Martha Lewis: Yeah, great. Well, thanks for being on Zenia. It was really great to meet you and I'll send you an email following up with those resources as well.


Zenia: Yeah. Thank you so much.


Martha Lewis: Let me know how things go.


Zenia: Thank you. Appreciate it.


Martha Lewis: All right. You're welcome. Bye. You are also welcome to sign up for a free sleep breakthrough call to be aired on this podcast. You'll fill out an assessment and then we'll meet on zoom and I'll tell you the three things to do right now that will have the biggest impact on your sleep and health. You can schedule your call at the link in the show notes and I hope to talk to you soon.

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