---
title: "173: How to calm your nervous system so you can sleep well!"
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canonical_url: "https://www.thesleepdetective.com/podcast/173-how-to-calm-your-nervous-system-so-you-can-sleep-well"
markdown_url: "https://www.thesleepdetective.com/llms/podcast/173-how-to-calm-your-nervous-system-so-you-can-sleep-well"
lastmod: "2024-12-18T10:00:00.000Z"
---

When you’re stuck in fight or flight, it’s impossible to sleep well. 

Chronic illness, trauma, or stress can keep your body in stress mode instead of relax mode.

Listen to this episode where I interview Emily Neumann of Primal Trust, a membership and community created by Dr. Cathleen King, that focuses on retraining the nervous system for people with chronic illness, trauma, and stress. 

Here’s what you’ll learn: 

- What’s happening inside your body at a cellular level when you’re dealing with chronic illness, trauma, or stress
- 2 ways that chronic health issues contribute to sleep issues
- How to heal your body from chronic issues
- Tools that will help you retrain your nervous system so you can sleep better and feel better

If you feel wired and stressed all the time and don’t know how to turn it off, you don’t want to miss this episode! 

Learn more about [Primal Trust](https://cathleenking.simplero.com/products/143239-Membership-PRIMAL-TRUST-Academy?ref=47099-martha-Lewis) and how you can retrain your nervous system to heal chronic illness, trauma, and stress. Sign up using my affiliate link.

We’ll help you consistently sleep 7+ hours uninterrupted, naturally and permanently in the Complete Sleep Solution program! [Learn more](https://thesleepdetective.com/complete-sleep-solution) and [book a free consultation](https://p.bttr.to/3VJwvDs) with the Sleep Detective™.

Resources

- Use code SLEEP20 to get $20 off the [Sleep Essentials course](https://thesleepdetective.com/sleepessentials/sleepessentials).
- Sign up for the [Insomnia Insight group program](https://thesleepdetective.com/insomnia-insight) to find and fix the root cause of your insomnia so you can sleep well without meds.
- Sign up for the [Complete Sleep Solution one-on-one program](https://thesleepdetective.com/complete-sleep-solution) to consistently sleep 7+ hours uninterrupted, naturally and permanently.

Episode Transcript

Have you tried everything from natural to pharmaceutical just to get a good night's rest? Join me, Martha Lewis, certified sleep expert and functional health coach. As I unpack what's really keeping you up at night and how to change it, this is the Sleep Detective podcast and I'm going to show you how to sleep well so you can enjoy your life.

Martha Lewis: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Sleep Detective Podcast. Today I am so excited to have Emily Neumann here from Primal Trust, which is a nervous system, brain retraining program. I will have her explain more what that is, but I am just so excited to find out more about this from her and the program. Primal Trust is something I've already been recommending to some of our clients who I think need this work. I really think this is going to be of such value not only to all of you listeners, but to my clients who are already in the program. So I'm really excited to share it with everyone. Thanks for being here, Emily.

Emily Neumann: Oh my gosh, thank you so much, Martha. Super excited to have this conversation. I think, like you said, it can be a piece of the puzzle that's really important for people in your community, so thank you so much for having me.

Martha Lewis: Yeah, definitely. And I always talk about everyone has their own unique puzzle with their own unique puzzle pieces, so this can be one of them, and it's not something that can be overlooked because if we don't address it, then you're probably not going to get better. So I'd love for you to briefly start by explaining what primal trust and retraining the nervous system are and what you're doing.

Emily Neumann: Sure.  Yeah, absolutely. So Primal Trust is an academy and community created by Dr. Cathleen King. So she is a doctor of physical therapy, she's a neuroscience based educator, and really the material is focused on assisting people with chronic illness, chronic stress, chronic trauma, sometimes all three. I'm sure you see that oftentimes that can be the case, but to really empower people in that space to take healing into their own hands. So by gaining an understanding of your own nervous system and just our nervous system in general. I think I was 35 years old when I was first explained that the nervous system controls the immune system to a certain degree, and I wish we were taught that in kindergarten, but we're not. And so understanding the role that it plays in chronic illness is massive. And I think that it's Frontier medicine. I think that it will be part of the fabric of the mainstream before we know it.

But as far as the academy, level one has about 30 hours of content. So I always say it's like a college course on your own specific nervous system. So that puzzle that you just mentioned, it also has about 40 science-based tools in just level one to get your nervous system out of a state of threat and into a state of regulation. And really the reason why that's important, and I always say I think that the reason Primal Trust is so successful for people in their healing journeys is because of the very specific chronological order of the program. So level one is all about regulation, introducing those tools, getting a nice daily structure in where you are regularly practicing these tools to rewire your brain to perceive safety in your body. Level two gets a little bit deeper into some parts work and some trauma work and things like that. And as I said, I think the order is really important when you jump right into trauma work, but you don't really have tools to regulate any responses that might come from that trauma work. It can be re-traumatizing.

And so I think starting in a place where we're actually going to do some science-based work on our nervous system on the front end is why the program is so successful. One thing that I definitely want to speak about right off the bat is why I bring up regulating the nervous system to get out of a state of threat. So many people in this community, people who are chronically ill, people who are chronically stressed, this is so much an issue in our country specifically with just this stress, this hypervigilance. So when we have an illness or some kind of toxic load can certainly be the cause of this, but as we said, it's a puzzle for many people. Our cells we're learning go into a state of cell danger response, and that's coined by Robert Navio. But what it means is, and thank God for it, it's kept our species alive for generations.

But the analogy that I always give to my clients is a gazelle in nature is being chased by a tiger. All of its autonomic functions shut off because it has to focus on survival, digestion, hormone systems. Certainly sleep will shut off because the body has to focus on survival when it escapes and it survives in nature, we see this gazelle physically shake and do things to kind of discharge that trauma that it just went through. Well, we don't do that. And so what happens is when we get into this state of threat, people in communities like this can't get out of it. And so they get stuck in something called cell danger response. And what we're seeing is the cell wall will actually become hardened in this demographic. When the cell wall becomes hardened, it's great. It keeps us alive in states of threat, but we begin to not absorb nutrients properly. We can't detoxify properly. We're seeing this in blood samples from people in high stress or in this type of demographic. And so when we regulate our nervous system, it can actually soften that cell wall which restores function in those autonomic processes again. And that is when we really see healing in this community. So level one is focused on softening that cell wall, perceiving safety enough that your body can start restoring its autonomic functions again.

Martha Lewis:  Yes, I love that. And people come to me saying, I just feel like I'm stuck in fight or flight. And it's like, and they are. Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly what's happening. And in the middle of the night when you can't sleep, it's so frustrating to be so tired and yet just also wired and just not able to fall into a restful sleep. So that's definitely what's happening. So before we talk more, I'm just curious how you became interested in this and what your journey is?

Emily Neumann: I think so many of us in this space, my own healing crisis really brought me here a couple of years ago, got bit by a tick and got horrible neurological, late stage Lyme disease, all these co-infections. I had digestive issues, it activated Epstein Barr. I had this list of diagnoses. Conventional medicine had no ideas. They had no lifeline, really, they didn't. And I know a lot of people with Lyme and certain autoimmune conditions relate to that. So I was, yes, and I was fortunate enough to find a functional doctor who turned everything around for me. I owe her just such a debt of gratitude. But she said to me, I will get you started on a protocol, but I need you to start this program. It's called Primal Trust. And she explained the nervous system to me, and I should mention my background. I'm trained in acupressure, Reiki one and two, I've been trained in energy work.

So many of us are like, wow, I was helping others, but I just never brought it home to help myself. And there was a part of that, but also I had two young children. I was working full time. I was just functioning for far too long. And so I started Primal Trust. And for those listening that you say have already kind of started, this is going to really resonate. You're going to say, oh, me too. And those who haven't yet, there is this validation when you first join the program where you just can't believe that there are others like you. There are others stuck in this place with these cascading symptoms or these mysterious diagnoses or just years of not being able to sleep or digest or things that most people don't really have to think about. And that was certainly me. So I noticed right off the bat with Primal Trust, I was able to actually tolerate some of the supplements that were prescribed to me much easier.

Now I realize that is the cell danger response theory. I finally was softening my cell walls and I could let certain nutrients in. I was starting to perceive safety. And then from there I was asked to come on and be a one-on-one mentor in the program, which is an incredible feature. We have live classes almost 365 days a year, sometimes multiple times a day, taught by myself, other mentors, Dr. Kat. We have study groups. I mean, there's really a community aspect and one-on-one mentoring is sort of a piece of that as well, if you just need help with blind spots or resistance patterns or things like that. So that's where I find myself now. I think it has been a massive part of my healing journey as well to sort of bring it outward to other people. I think sometimes we're wounded in community, we can heal in community. And so that is how I found myself here in this community.

Martha Lewis:  Yes, yes. I love it. And I just want to say to all my clients and everyone listening, if you're super sensitive to supplements and dealing with mold toxicity, which about a third of my clients are, then this is such an important piece that we need to work on because after working with many people and seeing some people just can't get better, this is the missing piece. So if that's where anyone is, then we definitely want to do this program.

Emily Neumann: Yeah, absolutely. And mold toxicity is huge in this community as well. There are certain modules where she speaks very specifically to that issue, and there are exercises and tools that are based on because people have lived in mold forever, if you really are at a place where you're not detoxing it properly, I think like you said, it is time to look at nervous system regulation.

Martha Lewis: Yeah.  Awesome.  Yeah. So let's talk about how this applies to sleep in particular.

Emily Neumann: So sleep's a big one. The two things that I see in my clients', especially with sleep, and I'm sure you do too. So I see paired associations a lot. You have wired these neural networks together to associate nighttime or even something very specific like your bed with the inability to sleep. Paired associations are very strong. This is a silly analogy, but I like to think about, you're watching TV and a commercial comes on for a cinnamon roll or something and you start to salivate. That's a paired association and they're very strong and you can actually wire to associate anything. I know Dr. Kat has done things with people where she'll have them put a dot on their wall and feel fear every time they walk by it. Think of something scary every time they see it. And then before you know it, that.is scary. So we can associate, we can wire anything, any networks together.

But the beautiful thing there is we can also rewire our brains are incredibly neuroplastic with sleep. There are such specific tools that we have in the program to help with those associations. It's just storytelling. And I think so much, and I know that people listening can relate to this, so much of the suffering when we're in this space comes from the stories that we're attaching to things we talk about top down, bottom up processing and top down is really our brains. So it's the part that is attaching stories as we process things bottom up is more sensory. So going back to a cinnamon roll example, you walk into a kitchen and maybe you smell something delicious. Your body says, I smell cinnamon rolls. And it's a reaction and your brain says, I remember when my grandma made me cinnamon rolls. And so it attaches a story and so much suffering is sort of born from that.

So I think with paired associations with sleep, there are so many amazing visualization tools that are provided. We have such an incredible pattern interrupt. I know for those of you who have done pattern interrupt before, I know that maybe people think it can be a little bit too general, but we really customize pattern interrupt so that it resonates with you. It has to be the backbone of really regulating your nervous system anyways because of those thought patterns. So we have some really beautiful tools to reassociate things and to rewire that pairing of neural networks that can create that story around sleep around, like I said, even nighttime. The second thing that I see with sleep, I always like to use the analogy of a computer. So we need to process things all throughout the day, right? It's just like when you're getting those update reminders on your computer over and over again, that's like we need to organize files, we need to process information.

We need to shut down so that we can process this menagerie of files and information. And so our brain is a lot like that. We'll kind of hear a little knock, a little alarm, a little hello, it's time to process, but we just keep scrolling on our phones or we obsess over our symptoms or we overachieve or we bring forth these coping mechanisms that we have. Well, when is your brain going to force that shutdown like your computer would do? Okay, I've given you all these warnings. Time to force a shutdown. It's going to be when you're laying in a dark room at night with no distractions. And so it's going to trigger that it's time to process, it's time to update. And so like you said, you're physically so tired, but you're wired and it really is just like that. And so as far as primal trust goes with processing breaks, if you are in this community and you're starting your daily structure out and you're making time and space for these tools, they're built in processing breaks. And so it's sort of a win-win. Not only are you regulating your nervous system, but there's so much less to process when you're laying there at night. So I would say those are the two things that I see that are just so fixable. They're so fixable. It took work to get you here. It took trillions of influences to get you here. It's going to take a little work to get you out of it. But like I said, our brains are so neuroplastic, especially around those two things.

Martha Lewis:   Yes, I love that. And I am already incorporating a lot of those in my program. So it's really good just to hear this reinforced of pattern interrupt and helping change your thoughts is part of it. And then taking time during the day to calm your nervous system is also really important. Otherwise then the only time it has is in the middle of the night, and that's not when you want that to be happening.

Emily Neumann: And it is a win-win because I doubt a lot of people in your community only struggle with sleep because it's a wheel and it's a chicken and the egg, and it's that whole thing. And so why I say it's a win-win is if you're incorporating these tools, you're also going to experience symptom reduction. It's proven. And so that's also going to contribute to better sleep depending on what you're dealing with. So it really is a win-win.

Martha Lewis: Yeah, definitely. Awesome. So I know when we were communicating, we kind of talked about the importance of not talking about your sleep. I know, and this is something I tell my clients too, when I wasn't sleeping well, I talked about it all the time. First thing in the morning, I would get out of bed, my husband would say, how'd you sleep? I'm like, horrible. And then I get to work and I complain to my coworkers about how tired I was and how bad I slept. And then I'd see my friends and complain to them. So one of the first things I learned when I first started diving into adult sleep is, okay, let's stop talking about it. So I'd love to hear your perspective on that and why it's so important to not talk about your sleep and how tired you are and your symptoms all the time. 

Emily Neumann:  Your symptoms. Yeah. This is a philosophy that is, we do this with all symptoms in the community. It's brought in very early in the community where that's sort of a rule in the beginning is it's no symptom talk. And that absolutely includes sleep. And it's funny to be the one speaking on this because of all the 40 tools in the first level, I had more resistance to this than anything. I was like, I'll do all the breath work, I'll do all the eye movements, I'll do all the visualizations, I'll do all the tools, but I will be speaking about my symptoms because I think so many can relate. You do feel misunderstood and you feel alone. And if there's a way that anybody can even sort of understand what you're going through, you're going to long for that. And so you want to talk about how you're feeling and what's going on.

And I do understand that. And the other thing I want to say is it's not about gaslighting yourself into believing that they're not real. Your symptoms are so real. They're not the only thing that's real though. So it's very important to think about that and to think about. It's not positive thinking, just look on the bright side. We're talking about your brain, we're not talking about your mind. And that differentiation is very important. Your brain is experiencing some kind of trigger or stimulus, and then it's just a windup toy and it starts rehearsing sound familiar to a lot of people listening. It starts rehearsing what it knows. The brain would rather be certain and miserable than uncertain. It's terrifying to go out into the unknown. And so what happens when we speak about our symptoms is we are validating that brain process, that this is negative, that it's causing suffering.

We're using those adjectives. And so we're reinforcing that it's okay to, if you just need to communicate that you are suffering, that something is causing you discomfort. We in primal trust say use a neutral word. So in my journey, I would just say to my husband, I'm having a lot of it right now, and I would just say that because you're telling your brain, then it's just neutral because guess what? It's here. So let it be here. And I think if your brain could fig…